Should there be a "Surrender Rule"? And what? [Archive] - Minnesota Scenario Paintball Forums

Sarge

02-11-2009, 05:57 PM

I voted 5 but personally I think
Open play: Either 5 or none
Private parties with new people: 10
I don't like the surrender rule because it starts a lot of arguments, but I do like it because a lot of times it stops people from being shot when it's unnecessary. That's why I'd go with 5 and under just because I see people who try to get others to surrender when they're to far away and then they just get shot. At 5 or under they wouldn't get a chance. lol then again I don't mind getting shot as much so maybe 10 is right. I think having the surrender rule in general is a good idea. But other then that it's up to what the field owner thinks.

JJohnson

02-11-2009, 06:22 PM

I personally also voted 5. I've come to hate the surrender rule and rarely follow it. The reason for this is that many people i've asked to surrender have not, and I usually get shot in the process even though I shoot them first.

I personally have surrendered a few times, I usually don't get in a situation that I might be asked to surrender, but a few times I have, and I've surrendered.

And just like Sarge said, I've seen it cause a lot of arguments too.

Drachen

02-11-2009, 06:46 PM

I chose 10 feet. I have surrendered a few times, when someone really gets the drop on me. And I do appretiate the chance to be able to surrender. Though most of the time I decide to ignore it and try to get them out before they get me. Though that can start a lot of arguments.

There should be some set distance to ask for a surrender, but if you yell for a surrender, and you say it loud, and clear enough for them to hear you, and they don't say anything or try to get you out, then you should be able to shoot them. It's a thin line though it seems.

Thalion

02-11-2009, 08:26 PM

10 feet, however I think it should be acceptable to just walk up and barrel tag and not say a word until "barrel tag" if the player is unaware of you.

In event of a known conflict (both sides are at least somewhat aware of the other), surrender should be offered as an option.

slick assasin

02-11-2009, 10:28 PM

I voted "0" because surender rules just cause arguements. I don't know how many times I have come around corners and shot people at point blank range. I know that is close, but they would have shot me if I hadn't gotten off the first shot. I usually try to aim for their pack when I am that close but then half the time they don't feel the shot and they try to shoot me any way and that always seems to be the issue. It's one thing if someone sneaks up on you and is close enough to barrel tag you but decides to shoot you any way, it's a completely different matter when the kill could go either way.
At BSV I came into a fort and when I came around the corner I shot a kid in the pack, he then pointed his marker at me and told me to surender. I was yelling at him and telling him I already shot him and to look at the side of his pack so he could see the break. He just kept yelling at me to surender. Andy was right behind me and heard me yelling so he just stepped around the corner and shot the kid. The kid was so mad that I didn't surrender that he just kept yelling how he wasn't going to ask for a surrender again. Too bad you cant get a surrender after you're dead!
This isn't the first time stuff like that has happened and I know it happens to other players all the time.
I think it all comes down to respecting each other and knowing when, and when not to just blast someone at close range. You just need the "0" rule to eliminate the "I told him to surrender first" arguements.

spock

02-11-2009, 10:55 PM

I think you should ask if you have the drop on someone but, be ready to fire if they don't answer fast enough...

TeaBuffalo

02-12-2009, 12:23 AM

I think you should ask if you have the drop on someone but, be ready to fire if they don't answer fast enough...

I second that.

Bunker Busters

02-12-2009, 06:50 AM

I voted for no rule, not that I think you should never ask some one to surrender but because there are to many arguments over it. I think that if someone gets a close (10') backdoor or sidedoor shot on some one that has no clue that they are about to get shot, that the shooter should give them the option out of courtesy. if both opponents are fighting it out and one is about to get bunkerd, etc. they should not have to ask before they bunker the other guy, because after all everyone has the option to call themselves out at any point in the game because the battle is getting to heated for them. IMO... if I allow someone to get that close to me I deserve to get shot.

Sandman 26

02-12-2009, 07:28 AM

I said 10 foot, but myself for walk on play will generally let everyone know I don't plan to surrender. In big games I would say yes if the person had the drop on me. Simply because I think in big games there are so many people that you have to put aside your pride and take a surrender sometimes, it just makes it better for everyone.

Small groups: Go no surrender

Big Games: Surrender at 10 feet, but I'd always keep my finger on the trigger and only give about 1 second to reply. Or, you could just shoot them from 20ft out and eliminate all need for argument.

Surrender is always a tricky situation, I've never asked for it in a Big Game. I've only ever used it in games amongst friends.

MondoMor

02-12-2009, 11:01 AM

I think you should ask if you have the drop on someone but, be ready to fire if they don't answer fast enough...

Yep. Rule or not, I'll give them the option if I'm behind them. But I'm aimed square at a leg and ready to fire. If they do anything but raise their arms and attach their BBD, they get shot.

That hasn't worked face-to-face, though. :)

There was a guy in one of the towers at the last Halloween game. I was at the ladder, and once I saw his armband tape, I aimed square at his butt and told him to surrender or he'd have trouble sitting down for a week. I can only imagine what he heard once my mask garbled it up.

evolkers2003

02-12-2009, 12:52 PM

No rule for open play, and maybe a 10 ft for private parties.

Ive had too many times where ive come around and asked some one to surrender and they dont. Ive also been at a field that recquired a surrender rule and was not offered it to me and i was shot. I then went to find a ref and the ref didnt do anything about it. Obviously in a big woods it was his words against mine and there was no way to tell what really happened. As long as the field does a good job chrono'ing i dont see a need for a surrender rule in open play and big games. a 300 fps ball will sting for a bit, maybe break the sting but we all know they look a lot worse than they feel (well, most of the time ;) )

the_real_kaz

02-12-2009, 05:36 PM

I voted for no surrender rule also.
I hate asking, for 2 reasons. 1 is because half the time they don't, the second is because it alerts anyone else of where I am.

I think alot of this can be avoided by having a barrel tag rule. Instead of asking them to surrender you touch them and they ARE out. No argument or anything. So if someone has the drop on someone else its over. No, turning and shooting someone who asks. If you don't like the idea of touching someone with a barrel (in case of acidental fire) than a simple tag with a hand will work as well. Or pulling out a paintbrush and paint "knifeing" is BA.

The automatic surrender dosn't work eaither for a couple reasons. One is that how can you tell if you within the "automatic" surrender range. Another is that if your in a fire fight with someone, another person could run at you screaming "you have to surrender" and then of course you shoot them and a big argument would happen. A final reason is that I've been within 20ft of some people in a fire fight (happens alot in the junk yard) If some just yelled at me that I had to surrender, I'd laugh and keep shooting.

Shaman

02-12-2009, 07:22 PM

I voted 10 feet. Twenty feet is still a fair distance away and it is quite difficult especially when you are tucked in tight so close to each other in a firefight. It can lead to quite a few arguements.
Especially with private groups, 10 feet sounds reasonable.

I personally have a hard time surrendering, especially when there is a chance that i can spin and win. Therefore I think the surrender has to be optional. I dont mind the one ball in the back, its not that bad. However barrel tags I think should be automatic outs (with the barrel still attached to the marker).

Thalion

02-12-2009, 08:09 PM

I don't see this rule idea as a requirement "you must surrender" type thing, but rather a guideline for when to shoot and when to try another tactic.

If I can get the drop on them, I will always barrel tag. That is non-negotiable, nothing to fight over, it is what it is.

I've had some real fun with barrel tagging at Resident Evil :)

AKA

02-12-2009, 09:56 PM

I think there should be a surrender rule, its definition not being so much of a rule but a common curtisy among all paintballers unless a field says no rules for surrender. When I first started playing, I had a rule for surrender to avoid point blank merciless kills, usaully causing unessasary pain to someone who may never want to play again because of it. I myself don't surrender players I got the jump on, if they don't know I'm there, I'll back out to a distance far enough to be safe and just take a couple shots. If I miss he will have a chance to shoot it out with me. The play is much more fun for the both of us.;)
If someone has the jump on me and chooses to surrender me I will raise my arms in discust and signal thumbs up!:cool:
But the ones I really got to laugh at, are those guys that come running to a bunker full of guns pointing at them and they start yelling surrender!laughing:)
I gotta think if they were going to surrender to the Bunker they should be running the other way!:rolleyes: But I'll just say shoot 'em!:D/AKA

slick assasin

02-12-2009, 10:06 PM

If you're close enough to barrel tag there should be no question...dudes out!
The problem with a distance rule is when you are in close quarters according to the rule you can't shoot each other if you are closer than the stated distance. So then what...do you both dance around trying to barrel tag each other while screaming SURRENDER!..?
Really though, it's paintball. You are going to get shot at close ranges and it may hurt..it's paintball..you should be expecting it. If you think it was a dirty shot, just respawn, hunt the guy down and eliminate him a few times, it will make you feel much better.
Sometime rules don't make things better.

slick assasin

02-12-2009, 10:13 PM

But the ones I really got to laugh at, are those guys that come running to a bunker full of guns pointing at them and they start yelling surrender!laughing:)
I gotta think if they were going to surrender to the Bunker they should be running the other way!:rolleyes: But I'll just say shoot 'em!:D/AKA

LOL! I know it seems stupid, but last year at ST during open play our team had a couple players bunkered down at their flag base with about 2 minutes left in the game. No one would advance so I just decided to take my chances and try to get the two guys out in the fort. I ran up to the fort, stuck my barrel over the wall and yelled SURENDER! To my suprise there weren't two players but actually five hunkered into the small fort! Even more suprisingly they all surrendered! I guess my barrel 2" from their buddys dome was enough to make them think twice. LOL...I think I was more suprised than they were.

Krutsie

02-12-2009, 10:33 PM

My wife said a quote she lives by. A Qoute from Mirranda Lambert" light em up and watch them burn ,teach them what they need to learn" j/k
Seriously I believe 20 is to far, 10 seems fair. 5 feet away,well, my maker will reach 5 ft. i'll just barrel tag em. lmao
I always played 20ft when playing with the sandman guys and it seemed like they just didn't want to get shot that close. Nate was one of the only guys on sandman that wouldn't surrender.

this is where i've seen a problem with surrendering. two guys walking down the path a enemy player steps out and says surrender. one guy walking raises his gun to surrender and the other guys spins around and shoots the enemy out. the enemy player gets pissed because they surrendered but only one actually surrendered.
One of my squad member had an issue at a giant game when he was walking with a group of guys and they got ambushed and most of them surrendered but my squad member opened up on them and got most of them out. The team that ambushed got upset. thats why I don't like the surrender rule.

Sandman 26

02-12-2009, 11:08 PM

I always played 20ft when playing with the sandman guys and it seemed like they just didn't want to get shot that close. Nate was one of the only guys on sandman that wouldn't surrender.

I did always say that I don't surrender before hand right? because I remember doing that, but what I remember and the truth have been different before...

badmoon

02-12-2009, 11:48 PM

i voted within 10 feet. but this comes with a concetion. that all "real players" still ecept what is is. im sure we all know what i mean.

the_real_kaz

02-13-2009, 03:54 PM

LOL! I know it seems stupid, but last year at ST during open play our team had a couple players bunkered down at their flag base with about 2 minutes left in the game. No one would advance so I just decided to take my chances and try to get the two guys out in the fort. I ran up to the fort, stuck my barrel over the wall and yelled SURENDER! To my suprise there weren't two players but actually five hunkered into the small fort! Even more suprisingly they all surrendered! I guess my barrel 2" from their buddys dome was enough to make them think twice. LOL...I think I was more suprised than they were.

I watched an event like this happen at the Combat D-day.

A german kid decided it would be a good idea to make 10 Americans surrender by running down off the hill and around the truck they were behind. It was litterally 10 on 1, The kid comes running around the truck and says surrender to 10 guys. Their was an aquird Silence for like 2 seconds and then before any of the players could react a ref ran in and called the German player out. The reasoning was because first off the german player was out of bounds for his team, and secondly, the ref decided to react before the 10 Americans did.

Personally If i was behind the truck (I was responding and walking toward the truck when it happened) I would have just shot the kid right away. Honestly did he think 10 guys were going to surrender? Luckily the refs were on top of the situation and the kid didn't get shot at all. This is another example of why haaving to ask the surrender rule could be bad.

Badger

02-13-2009, 05:27 PM

Back in 2005, when I wrote my first book, I had hoped to talk to enough players and field owners who would go along with standardized rules nationwide. That way, if you traveled to other events, there would be no question on a rule such as this. Darrin wouldn't have to worry about asking players what's fair or not. The rule would be the rule.

I liken this to playing softball. You can travel to all fifty states and play a game of softball with everyone, because it's well known that you have to make your way to 1st, 2nd, 3rd base, and then home in order to score. You never heard of a game where it's OK to touch 1st and 3rd base only, and then home plate to score. Also, it's nation wide that it's always 3 outs per side, per inning. This is never argued either.

Therefore, why is paintball such a gray area? My answer was always: if we implement hard rules, we'll lose players at our field. Oh well, I tried, I guess.

As for the surrender rule, I think the reason you get arguments so much is because when you say surrender, you offer that target a choice. "Either I surrender to this person, or I turn and fire, hoping I'll get him first." Personally, I'd love to just say, "bang, you're dead!" eliminating the option of choice. I know, before you start calling me on this, that that method isn't perfect either. No method will be. People who can't play this game with a sense of fun and sportsmanship will always complain and argue. It's one of the reasons I've backed off of playing so much.

Darrin, you should offer a surrender rule at your field, simply because you have young kids and older fathers who come to your games. It's not all a bunch of 20-something guys who are tough as nails and can take the pain. If you do away with a surrender rule, I guarantee you will see a significant drop in new(er) players because they will talk amongst each other that your field went too hard-core for their tastes. It will affect your bottom line.

Should it be 20 feet? I don't know. Some argue what's 20 feet out on the field. Should it be 10 feet? That's a good middle ground. Five or zero feet is too close, and will cause bleeding injuries, even if you do shoot at someone wearing protective clothing.

Hope this insight helps. beret:)

Badger

xSH00TERx

02-13-2009, 06:26 PM

I think you should ask if you have the drop on someone but, be ready to fire if they don't answer fast enough...

I agree, When someone sneeks up behind you it sure is nice for them to say something before putting one right in the spot that makes you look like a monkey hanging from a branch that is about to break!! but if I am going into a base it should be fair game for who ever is in there instead of someone hiding in a corner waiting to hollar surrender.

xSH00TERx

02-13-2009, 06:31 PM

Andy was right behind me and heard me yelling so he just stepped around the corner and shot the kid. .
I was waiting right outside the door, good thing i didn't follow Andy or he would have gotten it again!! And been three times as erked!!:scared0012:

Rogue

02-13-2009, 06:47 PM

I support the 10 ft option. I personally will give the player props if s/he has the skills to sneak up on me and get that close. I would rather give the other player the glory of the surrender than deal with the welt. baby:)

Krutsie

02-13-2009, 07:44 PM

I did always say that I don't surrender before hand right? because I remember doing that, but what I remember and the truth have been different before...

you and your sister where the only two aggressive players if i remember right. the others would rather park behind a tree and spray paint

slick assasin

02-13-2009, 08:18 PM

I was waiting right outside the door, good thing i didn't follow Andy or he would have gotten it again!! And been three times as erked!!:scared0012:

Yeah, I shot him in the pack but I think Andy gave it to him straight to the chest, no arguing with that one!
Next time I think I am bringing a bunch of grenades to throw in the forts so I don't have to deal with those issues. Whats worse? A big welt or being covered in orange paint all day?

Sandman 26

02-13-2009, 09:45 PM

you and your sister where the only two aggressive players if i remember right. the others would rather park behind a tree and spray paint

yea, hoping to get a little bit more flavor outta the game from here on out

Bunker Busters

02-14-2009, 06:37 AM

Yeah, I shot him in the pack but I think Andy gave it to him straight to the chest, no arguing with that one!
Next time I think I am bringing a bunch of grenades to throw in the forts so I don't have to deal with those issues. Whats worse? A big welt or being covered in orange paint all day?

no I shot him low (leg I think) I didn't want it anywhere near his head at that range.

Sandman 26

02-14-2009, 09:37 AM

no I shot him low (leg I think) I didn't want it anywhere near his head at that range.

hehe, point blank head shots are very unpleasant

myself and krutsie had an experience with this, where he inadvertently shot me from rather close right in between the eyes, I was pretty sore over that for a while, but it was an accident so it happens

I always try to hit people in their pack or on their guns if I can, but we all know how paint likes to fly its own way sometimes.

I think really surrenders come down to the individual and the situation, an application of common sense and fairness will help keep everyone happy. The one true thing for all situations of surrender I've been in is to always be less then a second from pulling that trigger, keeps your act of kindness from becoming your downfall.

brycelarson

02-21-2009, 08:49 PM

I usually offer the option when I've got a person dead to rights - but I know that I'm risking getting shot.

I voted for the 5 foot rule - it's those really really close shots that really hurt. But like I said - that would be my suggested mandatory rule if there's going to be one. I'll offer surrenders to people at greater distance if I know I've got them lined up. They don't have to take them - but then it's my rights to let 'er rip.

oh, and this certainly doesn't apply to "bunkering" situations. I'll certainly shoot the guy if he knows I'm coming and we're both ready for it. I assume this is talking about situations where you really get the drop on people.

Jono

02-22-2009, 05:25 PM

I realize that for open play a surrender rule would not work because 1. there are people that just aren't that respectful. The MMPT uses a 'ask at 20ft and auto at 10ft' rule and it works perfectly but thats because we are all respectful players that know eachother. I know a rule like that at splat tag wouldnt fly, theres to many new people and to many arguments would ensue. I'd recommend you enforce a 10ft automatic surrender rule because anything closer and there will be injuries, injuries = bad.
When im on the field I throw out surrenders when I bunker buildings and when I flank them. This is probably a distance of 5-20ft, I don't like to bunker people and shoot their backs up at 5ft, its not cool.

Sandman 26

02-22-2009, 06:36 PM

EZD

02-22-2009, 07:33 PM

Yes that would be the way it works.

Thalion

02-22-2009, 07:45 PM

Personally, I'm opposed to "automatic" ten-foot surrenders because there are some situations where the only solution to the problem is a bunkering.

Is it common? Not as common as bunkering happens, but it can happen.

For example, the one guy left can only be taken out with a bunkering. Do you just automatically call him out to 'save' him from it? Do you force the other team to just let time run out?

Don't get me wrong, I think bunkering happens way too often when it isn't needed, but I also think it shouldn't be banned entirely. As far as actual bunkering technique goes, to minimize risk of injury aim for a podpack or the marker hopper.

Sandman 26

02-22-2009, 07:52 PM

Dang, I'd hate that.

I feel there's a whole extra level of fun in the point blank aspect of the game. But thats just me, I don't mind the pain. I feel the fun gained from being able to rush up and get in someones face is to intense to lose, if you don't like point blank escalations call yourself out before they happen. And then if someone sneaks up and gets the drop on you, when they offer a surrender take it. I think most honorable players extend a surrender to people when they get the drop, be a standup player yourself and be a big enough man to accept.

As far as actual bunkering technique goes, to minimize risk of injury aim for a podpack or the marker hopper.

I agree with this statement, hit the hard stuff that isn't actually the person. Good strategy for all shots actually, when you have the chance aim for the gear. As a plus its more likely to break paint on mask/hoppers/packs, then it is on the people themselves.

Jono

02-26-2009, 09:08 PM

Thalion

02-27-2009, 08:55 AM

It makes me pissed when i go watch speedball and a guy bunkers another and lights him up. That ain't fun paintball. Bunkering is fine, sometimes it's necessary, but don't be a jerk. If i bunker people, I just say 'bang your dead' unless they move to me then I get to pop one on their pods.

I would just aim for the pods/hopper once.

The pods are an easier target on bunkering, but it's harder for the player to be able to argue he "couldn't see the hit" if you tag his hopper.

In the rare cases of the player having no pods and no hopper, I aim for the side of a shoe (the Farmland pump tourney when we got poured on, that was some crazy rain).

Saint

02-27-2009, 05:43 PM

Idk.. I'm a little more hardcore.. bunkering is fine when there is mutual knowledge of opposition, if I sneak up behind them and I'm within 10ft I'll politely ask them to surrender. If they hesitate, I'll pop them a couple times.

Psyco

03-01-2009, 10:57 AM

Sarge

03-01-2009, 08:42 PM

With everyone so worried about player participation in the coming years I would say this rule is a must. Surrender should be left at a optional basis mostly to give people the choice. If there is a SR paintballer that gets called and would rather have a close range shoot out then by all means its his/her choice. However if some new player to the sport would like not to go home with a welt the size of a fist then again its his or her choice.

Distance is up to the player calling for surrender. Personally I have made a guy surrender with in 15 feet, my brother on the other hand had a guy with in 5 feet and offered him surrender. Its truly up to both players.

Just my 2 cents worth

-Psyco

Good point. It is a lot about who the player is. If I get the drop on someone that plays a lot and who wouldn't care I'll shoot them, but if the kid looks new I'll go for a surrender or barrel tap. lol at resident evil some little kid turned around at the last second so my barrel was in his face. Didn't even need to ask, he just ripped off his armband!