Response Triggers vs. Electro

[TeaBuffalo]

It's commonplace for response triggers to be allowed where "semi only" is the rule. They seem to somehow fall into a gray area of semi and full auto. No doubt someone will simply say "it's one ball per trigger pull" and while that is technically true, we all know that it isn't that simple.

It comes to mind because of the 3-man woodsball tourney posted here on this forum. Electric triggers are not allowed, it is semi and pump only. What is the difference between a full auto Spyder and a Tippmann Response trigger? Easy, the Tippmann can shoot faster and the Spyder isn't legal. Most Spyder modes are capped at 10, while the Tippmann can easily achieve 10-15.

Why is a marker like the SP1 not allowed? It is capped at 11 bps, far less than what a Tippmann Response Trigger can do.

So my real question is "Why is the Response Trigger allowed where full auto isn't?"

[Bunker Busters]

I would have to say that its harder (almost impossible) to walk a mech trigger then an electro and most high end electro's are 30+ bps. you could put a cap on bps and allow any gun but then it would not be a Classic 3-man woodsball tournament.

[Thalion]

I hear "classic" and think of mech autocockers, classic 'mags, and pumps.

Tippmann's RT was released, what, late 90s?

I can understand opening it up to modern mechs too (as I somewhat doubt many players today have a marker from those days), but I would guess that RTs aren't allowed anymore than electronics.

[TeaBuffalo]

I would have to say that its harder (almost impossible) to walk a mech trigger then an electro and most high end electro's are 30+ bps. you could put a cap on bps and allow any gun but then it would not be a Classic 3-man woodsball tournament.

Do you think that a RT is truly "classic'?

A high end electro might be able to cycle 30+, but there are a few limiting factors. First, show me someone who can do 30+ in semi. Second, show me a hopper other than the q-loader than can sustain 30+ bps. Very, VERY few people can sustain even 20 bps with an electro, sure they can burst it, but I mean for more than a few balls. I would wager your average player can't sustain more than 13-15bps.

It is quite easy to sustain 13-15bps with a Tippmann RT. In my opinion, the RT is a form of full-auto much more than it is semi.

I hear "classic" and think of mech autocockers, classic 'mags, and pumps.

Tippmann's RT was released, what, late 90s?

I can understand opening it up to modern mechs too (as I somewhat doubt many players today have a marker from those days), but I would guess that RTs aren't allowed anymore than electronics.

Thalion, I would guess that too, but that isn't the case. The fact is that the RT usually IS allowed.


I'm not campaigning to change rules, I'm just after some conversation to see why people think a RT belongs in a 'semi-only ' game.

[badmoon]

im sure it has more to do with a sponcership deal d and tippmann worked out. just a thought. i mean it is a woodsball feild. and tippmann is a woodsball gun.

[TeaBuffalo]

I think it is more common than just Tippmann sponsored events, don't you? It's pretty common.

[Foster]

Funny, I have been on the other end of that debate.

PB Sams in Racine would not allow my RT single trigger A5, but allowed blade trigger E-cockers, Impulses, Trix's, bla bla bla. Now I love how everyone goes to the max on these ROF issues.
RT hit 18bps?
Sure do, but how long it it sustained?
.2 seconds?
.5 seconds?
Or a really tuned RT along with an experienced user 1-2 seconds?

Pfft.
Anybody with a stock ION set in semi mose can keep paint flowing out the barrel untill the hopper is empty.

Calling RT full auto is not fair, More like burst.

As for the "old school" woods tournament, If you want to play it play it. If someone is shooting a RT just remember that they have weaknesses to exploit. An A5RT is not exactly a pinpoint shooter.

[TeaBuffalo]

I don't own an RT, but I do tune them for people and I can easily hold sustained fire for more than 1 second, 3-5 seconds isn't hard to do when the RT is tuned right. Some people that come in and get it tuned always have trouble working it, but once you master the RT, sustained full auto really is no trouble.

The same can be said for electro's laying thick ropes of paint easily. However, electros can be easily capped at 15. What is the difference between a cocker shooting 15bps in semi and a RT shooting 15? Your statement that not everyone can run a RT at full auto is roughly equal to the fact that a lot of people with electros can't sustain 15bps for more than a second or three either. I don't think it's fair to say that because a Tippmann with RT is inaccurate that it should be given extra consideration.

Like I said, I'm not bitching about the rule, I'm just very curious why it is common that such an exception is made, Splat Tag is certainly not the only place with the same rule. I have no problem going up against somebody's RT with anything I shoot. That rule will have no bearing on whether or not I make it to a 3-man tournament. I'm just here for the discussion.

[*mess*Chain_gang]

the only diff between full auto and semi is the trigger pul its just easier to get to 15 on auto the semi but if ur good with ur maker u schould beable to shoot 15bps on semi

[JJohnson]

the only diff between full auto and semi is the trigger pul its just easier to get to 15 on auto the semi but if ur good with ur maker u schould beable to shoot 15bps on semi
Not with a non-electric. I'm pretty sure I can't get my mechanical A-5 up to 15bps, my PM6 on semi, not a problem. But they aren't allowing electric triggers for the woodsball tourney.

[TeaBuffalo]

That's kinda my point, if you want to allow people to shoot up to 15bps, why would you only allow a RT and not an electro? If you truly are after 'classic' type play, why restrict RT's as well?


Again, I'm not limiting this to the Splat woodsball tourney, this is a common practice in many places. I have no problem with this rule, it is just kind of an odd rule.

[Thalion]

Again, I'm not limiting this to the Splat woodsball tourney, this is a common practice in many places. I have no problem with this rule, it is just kind of an odd rule.

Seems to me this isn't about the "mechs only" rule concerning the event (in which case, I apologize for my misunderstanding). It's about RT versus firing modes other than semi.

In that case, a large part of restrictions has to do with insurance. Many field insurance companies won't cover true "full auto" but will cover RTs because they are technically semi-auto.

[TeaBuffalo]

Now we're talkin Thalion, but it's more about why ban electro's from events like this? To me, if you ban electro's, you should be banning RT's also. In a game that is strictly pumps and semi's, why allow a semi that is basically engineered to circumvent the rules? Why not just stick with straight up classic pumps and semi's?

The idea that it was a Tippmann sponsorship deal was brought up, Tippmann makes E-grips too, so I don't really see that as a reasonable excuse. I would really like to hear from someone who is charge of this event, or any other like it. I want to hear their reasoning.

I hate to keep repeating myself, but I don't want people thinking that I am pissed about the rule. I'm not. You can make any old rule you want when you host a game, that's one of the perks of hosting the game. I am just really curious as to why it is common to see games setup like this.

[brycelarson]

I come down on the side of putting the RT trigger into the pile of banned guns.

Yeah, you can't just hold the trigger back like a full auto - but on a touchy one it can be hard to just shoot once... which I see as more than one ball per intentional pull. It's like an electro w the debounce turned off - sure, you're only getting an extra shot every few intentional trigger pulls - but you're still getting more than a 1:1 ratio - which breaks the rules.

An RT can give exactly the same results - even if it's only an extra shot every few pulls - it's still more than a 1:1 ratio.

[EZD]

As for the Rule on RT for the Splat Tag Woodsball tournament coming up.

We are not compeering RT guns to Electric guns.

A Tippmann E-grip that can be set to RT is not allowed either.

Any RT gun still has restrictions.

Are goal in this tournament to have a team win by playing better then the other team not by having a better guns.

For this tournament.

We can set up a woodsball tournament for any type of paintball gun if enough people want one. Including full auto.

Darrin
651-488-7700
www.splattag.com (http://www.splattag.com)



Splat Tag woodsball tournament August 23.
http://www.splattag.com/paintball/tournaments/woodsball_classic_paintball_tournament.htm

[TeaBuffalo]

Darrin,

God no, I'm certainly not requesting full auto. Ack!

I love the idea of pitting players against each other without equipment being a factor. I think it would be cool as hell if everyone had to use rentals. Exact equipment, that'd be sweet.

I'm curious what restrictions are imposed on RT's? One would assume ROF restrictions, but if that's the case, wouldn't it be effect be the same as capping electro's? I'm just curious how one defines "classic" and how/why a game creator decides to include RT's in a pump/semi game.

[EZD]

Almost everything I do is based on what I have played and liked.

Classic - in this case is before batteries.

I have traveled all around the US playing in national woodsball tournaments and even play on ESPN and none of the guns used batteries when I played.

I tryed running a open gun class woodsball tournament and I did not like the extra cost of refs.

With an RT your finger act as a bring.

All guns at my event must have a capped ROF.

[CrazyDave]

Or... just play pump, solves everything ;)

[C4 Explosives]

68 Carbine, one shot, one kill biatches, or, if you absolutely, positively have to kill every mofo on the field go Super RT with a 3" barrel mwhahahah.

An RT on a stock A5 will blow the plastic cyclone ratchet in a hurry. Search the Tippmann forums for Super RT it's basically the RT system with upgraded 1/8 hoses and banjos with the Lightning Rod, Vortex, and QEPH mods. I run it with the highest Trinity velocity spring and no velocity adjustment screw and a 3" barrel. I might only get 260 FPS, but at 20 BPS who cares? Ball breaks? No problem, 5 balls out of the 3" will clean it back to action. Oh, and it's loud as hell.

I never really got why a 20BPS electro wasn't legal when a 20BPS mech was. Granted it can be more difficult to tune a mech to that kind of speed AND maintain it, but yeah the Tippy RT is kind of ridiculous, I can't tell you how many players have called on a ref to check my rig because they thought I was cheating. Rapid fire is one thing, but I think LOUD rapid fire just freaks people out.

Maintaining an RT for a constant rope isn't necessarily easy, maybe that's why it's legal?

[TeaBuffalo]

Or... just play pump, solves everything ;)

Unless the pump game you play in allowed RT. ;)

A pump is on my list of things to buy, I definitely want to give it a shot. My goal this year was to broaden my paintball horizons and I'm definitely made some progress. Up until this year I hadn't been anywhere but SFP and small local games. Now I've been two Splat Tag and OK Day. I've got one more trip to Splat scheduled, and next year I'm going to get involved in some tournament play. Best sport/hobby ever.

[CrazyDave]

hmm, an RT/AT pump... thats a fun thought, it fires on both forward and back pump strokes, I would love that!

[F-N-U]

would wager your average player can't sustain more than 13-15bps.
i'd be willing to bet that the average rec player can't hit 12bps except in spikes if at all... sept of course if he is using some form of ramping
RT hit 18bps?
i doubt a stock r/t could hit 15bps... maybe one with the LP hose(super r/t) but not a normal stock one